A discussion with a conservative Evangelical

Over on the Book of Face, a conservative Evangelical who often tries to talk sense to his readers about the sanity of getting vaxed and observing common sense about public health offered a comment on this old tweet of Biden’s:

Saith he:

Oh, really… I think you’ve both dropped the ball.

When challenged on this claim by a reader who rightly noted that Biden led a brilliant charge to get millions vaccinated that exceeded his promises and time schedule and was fought every single step of the way by selfish MAGA narcissists, he replied:

Most conservatives I know are vaccinated.

Those two comments in combination were more than I could endure. So I wrote him and poured forth my frustration at this sort of “Both Sides are Morally Indistinguishable” stuff that conservatives embarrassed by the MAGA freak show always deploy in order to pretend they are morally aloof while they continue to defend American conservatism that is now equal and coterminous with that Freak Show. The conversation evolved and I put it here for your rumination. His comments are indented. Mine ain’t.

***

“Most conservatives I know are vaccinated.” is not a good reply and I think you know that at some level. The fact remains that, whatever your tiny circle is doing, the absolute backbone of the anti-vax cult of selfish, stupid narcissists is conservatives, desperately committed to a host of pathologies, lies, spiteful ideological committments and sheer dumbass folly. This is a public health disaster that is almost entirely due to conservative folly.

To be callous, those that don’t get vaccinated are helping by cleaning out the gene pool

They are also killing innocents in their power, including their own children and the children of all those who have shown consideration by getting vaxed. This is a catastrophic failure of Christian witness by the loudest Christians in US public life. Our children will curse us for it.

It is saddening.

But my point here is, “Stop telling falsehoods to defend conservatives. They are the absolute core and center of the problem and “my tiny circle of friends are vaxed” is a weak attempt to deny that. Face the fact that American conservatism is a diseased and monstrous freak show, as is the sector of Christianity now committed to defending it at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives. Come out from it and be separate.

Again, most conservatives I know are vaccinated. That’s not a falsehood. It doesn’t fit your view but many who are against requiring vaccinations have had them. I know a few blacks who aren’t getting vaccinated because of history. The few white people I do know believe that vaccines create autism. I have repeatedly posted to get vaccinated.

So what? The statistical fact, whatever your tiny anecdotal experience may be, is that the backbone of the antivax murder/suicide cult of millions in the US is conservatives who have fought tooth and nail against sane public health and are at war to force Normals to send their children to schools that are forbidden to take even minimal public health measure to protect those children. Texas and Florida are monument to the conservative death cult. COVID is now becoming a MAGA disease and Darwin is in the driver’s seat–all because of conservatives. That your tiny group of friend is vaxed means nothing. The plural of anecote is not “data”.

Your anti conservative worldview looks for every excuse to bash those who you hate. The spread is really large in the African American and Hispanic groups but you don’t bash them (nor do I). You should bash them as well then. I’m against all of this Tribalism bullshit that left and right are pulling. I’m concerned about human beings, whether I agree with them politically or not. Encourage and pray for wisdom is better than using Covid-19 as another excuse to engage in tribalism.

You engage in tribalism when you tell falsehoods in order to pretend that the backbone of vax denialism and lies about COVID is not the MAGA cult. “Both sides are equally guilty” falsehoods have one object and one object only: to defend the side that is overwhelmingly, documentably, and obviously the source of the trouble. Conservatives who want to deny their complicity in creating the monstrous evil that is MAGA constantly tell this lie. The sooner you face the fact that MAGA conservatism is the #1 threat we face, the sooner you can stop pretending that you are impartial and morally aloof.

Tribalism, including MAGA, is the number one threat we face. The only tribe I try to be in is the Tribe of Christ and the human race. I am trying to overcome Covid. I do not have the patience or strength right now to engage in verbal fisticuffs with you I hope you are doing well God be with you

As do I try to only serve Christ. But when you suggest that Biden and the Normals are equally to blame for the Pandemic, it is flat falsehood. The man met and exceeded expectation for vaccination. What has slowed him down and caused the fourth wave is 100% due to antivax idiots, the backbone of whom is the MAGA cult. Blaming Biden for that is sheer slander and a refusal to look reality in the face.

Comparable in that a pandemic is occurring under their watch, not equal in their complicity of creating the problem. Agreed.

What?

Biden and Trump are comparable in a Venn Diagram that the pandemic is occurring under their watch. They are not equally responsible for the pandemic.

Biden needs to order another lockdown, imho.

What you said is, “Oh, really… I think you’ve both dropped the ball.” It is an absurd “Both Sides” claim with no basis in reality.

Biden has dropped the ball in that he is not making decisions to stop the current surge, including another lockdown.

And require vaccinations for all children attending schools. Vaccinations should not be an option except for those with auto immune diseases or religious exemptions. Believing in a false narrative is not a religion.

I don’t know what the legal ramifications of that are or if it is even possible for a President to simply order that. My bet is that he favors that if the science requires it. But unfortunately he has to battle GOP assholes in the Confederacy and red states every step of the way.

If Trump were President and said to wear a mask and get vaccinated, they would all agree. It’s all about being obstinate because he/they lost the election. If they get COVID, I will not have sympathy, if their children get COVID, it should be considered child abuse.

Precisely. They are the problem, not Normals.

I put on fb just now that it is child abuse and stupid, already recieved one complaint about the post. RidiculousEnter

The harder you push back against the conservative Freak Show, the more irrational they will become. They are the problem. Yes, “all have sinned”. And likewise, all disease is bad. But when you go to the doctor with Stage IV pancreatic cancer, you would be insane to listen to the doctor who says, “Let’s not forget that hangnails are painful too.” Sane triage clearly says that the #1 threat to sanity, education, public health, democracy, and global order is the GOP and American conservatives, especially radically selfish and stupid conservative Christians who bless their insanity in the name of God Almighty and justify it with the conviction that they are doing his will and not their own deeply evil will.

Man follows their will and deems it God’s usually ends in self destruction

That it is so consistently one demographic–conservative white American Christians–who are the worst offenders should give us pause.

Hubris and Narcissism is a human condition, not constrained by political ideaology or even religion. THey do seem to have more than their share though.

They are the epicenter of wrongness in American spiritual and political life. They have even managed to get being prolife catastrophically wrong by turning the unborn into human shields for the massive stupidity, selfishness, cruelty and narcissism that is their only lasting legacy. They insult the living God constantly and drive away the decent from the kingdom of God with their appalling behavior.

They have been indoctrinated in a world view since the 1950s that will take time to subside.

No. Since the 80s. This started with the alliance of the GOP and conservative Christians under Reagan.

Well, depends on what movement you are looking at. the Movement from the 1950s, came into power in the 1980s with the Moral Majority, etc… Much of which was just a transition from pro segregation to anti-change because being pro segregation was no longer acceptable.

On the contrary, precisely what happened in the late 60s was that the GOP opened its doors to disaffected white racist Dems pissed off by the passage of the Civil Rights Act. The Southern Strategy was to send coded message to whites that the GOP had their backs. It has evolved over time into the now blatant racism of MAGA, but it began in the late 60s. The GOP, among its many other evils, is now the dogged and determined defender of white supremacy.

I’m talking about the religious right part of the Republican party. The Dixiecrat move to the Republican party did occur in the 60s. Dixiecrats do include some evangelical Christians in it, as well as some fundamentalists.

The project of the 80s through 2016 was turning racist white Christians into people who use the unborn as human shields for their racism, among the many other evils they support. The bargain became “Support the GOP and someday soon they will magic abortion away”. Now the cult doesn’t even care about human life and will kill pregnant mothers with COVID if only they can savor their spite against those they hate.

Republicans used the pro life movement as a political tool to get tax cuts for the rich and Corporate welfare. The Populism of Trump is anathema to the conservativism of William Buckley (and George Will). It is far more focused on identity politics and fomenting grievances a changing society. Trump is the child of George Wallace and Pat Buchanan more so. He has less like Ronald Reagan or Jack Kemp or George H W Bush or even W than you seem to think.

He is where American conservatism has evolved to. The entire thing. People like Will and every other conservative with even the shred of a decent impulse are excommunicate in the monstrous evil thing that is American conservatism. All that remains to be done with it is to fight and kill it. Nothing is more important to the health of the country than its destruction and replacement with a civic culture ordered to the common good and against the psychotic narcissism of the GOP antichrist fascist cult of death.

Trump Populism will far outlive him. It was and is fear based. It is about making and using white man’s fear that he’s going to be an outsider in this country. As the country continues to change (for better and worse) in the future, that fear will increase. Especially with the demise of the middle class and the blue collar jobs in this country. Hopefully a phoenix will come out the ashes but I not overly hopeful.

Yes. It will. And as Tucker Carlson, Rod Dreher, and GOP voter suppression efforts make clear, it seeks a white racist Orbanesque fascist regime that can crush democracy in the US once and for all. There is no hope for renewal of the GQP. It is now the enemy of the United States and must be killed as a political force before it kills this country.

It is destroying itself. The destruction began with the Tea Party movement, that became the Donald Trump movement. Eventually conservatives will start their own party or go to the Democratic party to move them to the center. Progressivism is not centrism.

What conservatives call “progressive” is what Eisenhower Republicans called “normal”. There is no indication that the demented maniacs in the GQP have any intentions of coming to sanity. They only learn from self-inflicted pain. They are devoid of empathy or wisdom and learn nothing from others. They repeat slogans. They regurgitate what the liars in their tribe feed them. They are determined to burn everything down for spite’s sake. They must be crushed. We can’t wait for them to see reason. There is no time. Between pandemic and, above all, climate change, we are in the fight of our lives. Smash the GOP. The Dems will fill the ecological niche with centrists and progressives who will argue about the common good without perverse, spiteful morons obstructing every hope of progress.

AOC and Bernie Sanders would not be called normal during the 1950s, they would be called Communists.

As for progressives, I was consider the attempts to redefine what a woman is, that a mentally ill male with gender dysphoria is the same as a biological woman is refuted by science.

The democratic politicians have the same campaign contributors as the Republicans, corporate money. To think that a corporate liberal will behave any different than a corporate republican denies history.

This, again, is simply false. The GQP’s overriding agenda is always the same: more for the wealthy. That’s it. That’s all (except for a catastrophic war in 2003, which was also about more for the rich). Dems attempt projects that relieve punishments for the poor. Universal health care, cheaper or free education, projects like the New Deal, Social Security, Medicare (all of them decried as “socialism” by the GQP). That the Dems are imperfect in their attempts is a given. But they attempt it. The GQP, especially now, does nothing but obstruct and harm. Rather like with the Pandemic. The Dems have made progress against it. The GOP has fought tooth and nail to spread it and inflict suffering and death as far as possible. Calling them moral equivalents is an obscene injustice.

When it comes to protecting the interests of the rich, they are comparable. Some areas they disagree (democrats love abortion but hate poverty, Republicans are the reverse). Bill Clinton engaged in deregulation for his campaign contributors and did the welfare reform act that hurt those in poverty. As soon as Obama put into place rules to prevent another 2008, he started the process of dismantling some of those policies that hurt his contributors.

I am not saying that Democrats and Republicans are the same about poverty in general but when it comes between poverty and campaign contributions, they hold to the latter.

No. They are not. And the proof of that is precisely the fact that Obama pushed for universal health care while the GQP lied about “death panels”–the very same GQP that now labors to kill the weak with COVID. Conservatism is a lying murder/suicide cult. Every attempt to invent a moral equivalence argument has one and only one object: to defend that murder suicide cult and hamper the one and only chance we have to destroy it before it kills a million more and makes war on our democracy.

Obama pushed for universal requirement of coverage, not universal healthcare. His plan created a forced group of individuals to get insurance or be penalized. It created a market for his investors, I mean contributors. There were no pharmaceutical cost cuts to help lower the cost of premiums.

The fact I point out misdeeds of the Democratic party you claim false equivalency without recognizing the issues within their party is concerning. They are not equal in their actions but they are comparable, like to apply to a Venn Diagram.

You have a good versus evil mentality when it comes to the two parties that reminds me of fundamentalists who support the Republican party, like Franklin Graham or Jerry Falwell Jr. You have no objectivity when it comes to them. That is all.

He pushed for what he could get. And even that was hated by the GQP, whose only policy was “Don’t get sick” and cheers at the GQP debates at the thought of the uninsured dying. Politics is the art of the possible. Obama did what was possible with an obstructionist GQP. The GQP murder suicide cult that now wants to abandon millions of people to sickness and death lied about “death panels” to stop even that. They are a profound force for evil. Attempts to soften the contrast with moral equivalence arguments are nothing other than defenses of that force for evil.

No. I have a triage mentality. One party wants to spread suffering, misery and death with pandemic, as well as destroy our democracy, suppress the vote, and institute fascism. It has repeatedly devastated the economy as well with stupid policies, disastrous wars, and lies. And it is openly and naked racist. The other party sometimes fails in its good intentions and has its share of creeps (like Cuomo). When they show up, they are rebuked by the rest of the party. When the GQP commits insurrection, treason, and murder, they fight to protect the guilty while offering the satanic lie, “You are just as bad as we are.” Because they are an evil pack of nihilist predators, devoid of conscience, having goals and not principles, and devoted to the acquisition of power at any cost and with no regard for any human being or God.

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7 Responses

  1. Also, your friend made a couple laughably false statements:
    1) “most conservatives I know are vaccinated”. Come on. The vaccination rate among Republicans is 54%. It is 86% among Democrats.
    2) “The spread is really large in the African American and Hispanic groups”. Wha? What is his source for this? The vax rate among Blacks is far higher than among R’s – 65% of Blacks are vaxxed (and 61% of Hispanics) (and 70% of whites).
    Source:https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-july-2021/
    – joel

    1. One of the go-to tactics for arguing this issue for the MAGA crowd is (drum roll)…..shift the blame to Those Dark Skinned People. Whether black and Hispanic Americans are or are not lagging in their personal decisions to get the vaccine, the fact remains that the only demographic making a concerted effort to maximize the death toll is white and MAGA. If we look at who is actively promoting scam cures and vaccine disinformation, using draconian laws to punish schools and businesses for mask requirements, assaulting and murdering store clerks over mask rules, plotting to kidnap and murder governors over shutdowns, poisoning themselves with farm chemicals, threatening scientists, overwhelming health care systems with covid cases, they are ALL white, all MAGA, all the time. There is no equal guilt whatsoever.

      There is only one “side” which is actively pulling for the virus to win over humanity.

  2. I think you hit the crux of the problem in the last sentence. Modern conservatism, which has been 100% hijacked by MAGA, has nothing at all to do with conservatism. It is pure nihilism. It’s much more along the lines of the People’s Temple, Scientology, the Khmer Rouge or the Lord’s Resistance Army in Africa. It’s a cult which demands absolute fealty to a shared delusion and places no value at all upon life.

  3. All due respect, but if I saw this exchange with the particulars removed and just the attitudes and motivations intact, I would have guessed that your interlocutor was the George Will figure of the exchange (willing to genuinely critique and potentially abandon his previous political allies given new information) rather than your Franklin Graham or Jerry Falwell, Jr, reconciling themselves to a flawed President while committing themselves that they would “hold him accountable when he strays”. We all knew they were full of it and wouldn’t do anything of the sort and we were right.

    But they were so terrified and incensed at the demons prowling around looking for ways to “destroy America”, that they were willing to countenance supporting Trump to at least keep the demons at bay for a while. Thus we saw the rise of the “anti-anti-Trumpers”. They couldn’t stomach the emotional and mental instability of the Donald, but they also couldn’t allow a victory for the “bad guys” who genuinely sought a lesser world rather than a better one, so they became co-conspirators in order to save the Republic from those who would truly do her harm while pledging themselves to suffer through the moment without criticism of the flawed figurehead, lest it inadvertently result in sustenance and succor to the enemy that represented an existential threat to the Republic. (No criticizing DJT lest it result in down ballot damage for the GOP; our only hope at finally crushing the illiberal and anti-American forces seeking to crush American.)

    So now we get the anti-anti-Bidens who will countenance no criticism of the flawed (but only) hope to finally put an end to the existential threat to democracy posed by the [latest] enemies of American democracy.

    SQUAREDANCE CALLER: “Everyone change partners!!”

    “He piled upon the [opposing party] the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart’s shell upon it.” -Herman Melville (paraphrased)

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